"The fact is, Rodriguez's performance this season has not been special for any closer, and it's been below average for 50-save closers. Even among his peers in 2008, Rodriguez's run prevention has been ordinary; Rivera, Soria, and Joe Nathan have lower ERAs, RAs and higher VORP scores. K-Rod is chasing the record not because he's having a season like Eckersley's '90 or Gagne's '03, one that raises the bar for short relievers, but because his teammates have given him more chances to save a game than all but one pitcher in MLB history has had. If the Angels had Nathan, Soria or Rivera, those pitchers would have a higher save percentage than Rodriguez has posted -- and would perhaps have already set the record for saves in a season -- and the Angels would have more wins. Quite frankly, earlier versions of Rodriguez would have been more productive as well; this is one of the lesser seasons in his six-year career."- by Joe Sheehan on Sports Illustrated.com
I want to use this excerpt from Sports Illustrated to show why I believe the Mets should not sign Francisco Rodriguez during this upcoming season. Also, Billy Wagner's injury is not covered by insurance which means the Mets will be on the hook for his 2009 salary which could and should be a deterrent from them signing K-Rod. I think the Mets would be making a mistake to sign K-Rod because his proabably record breaking year will make him overrated coming into the offseason. I feel the Mets should sign somone like Fuentes or Wood to a 2 or 3 year deal until someone like Kunz, Burgos, or Parnell (if they switch him back to a RP) is ready. Fuentes and Wood have both had similar years to K-Rod in terms of ERA and WHIP. (Although Wood has struggled a bit lately). They are cheaper options who could do just as good of a job.
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The fact that the man from Sports Illustrated didn't bother to mention Papelbon is one of the single most disturbing things that I have ever read. Period. W. T. F.
Joe Smith = Closer of the future.
Don't sign K-Rod.
FIRE OMAR!
Joe Smith is good but he's definitely not the closer of the future. Fire Omar? What moves has Omar made or not made that makes you think we should fire him? And who should we hire in place of him?
1. Trading Matt Lindstrom and Heath Bell in two separate moves for career AAA players. Letting Chad Bradford walk. The number one reason for the collapse last year and the bullpen problems again this year.
2. Not completing the cycle of rebuilding started in 04, and started trading for and signing old veterans on the decline like Alou, Castillo, Burgos, heck even Delgado, despite what he's done this second half, Mike Jacobs is a better long term solution. Now young promising talent that could have gelled over the pass few years and turned the team into a real contender are playing for other teams.
3. Hire someone that values bringing young talent through the system, not someone just looking for a quick fix. Someone like Bill Stoneman (used to be the GM of the Angels, who's loaded farm system of a few years ago with guys like Saunders, Santana, Wood, Aybar, Adenhart, Arrendondo, Mosley, Napoli, Mathis, and more stuck together and now look at them.) Omar's the same guy who traded Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips for an aging and fat Bartolo Colon. He doesn't value prospects at all they're all trading chips for him (Lindstrom, Bannister, Gomez, Humber, Mulvey, Jacobs, Martin, etc)
This team is not made to win now, if we finished the rebuilding process we would be. We're two years away from being a World Seires team again. Whoever the new GM is needs to hold on to guys like Brad Holt(who is gonna be a star), Neise, Dylan Owen, Bobby Parnell, Eddie Kunz, and Fernando Martinez.
1.At the time Omar traded Bell and Lindstrom the Mets felt like they had enough relief pitching and were desperate for starting and wanted a guy with upside who could contribute. Vargas was a young pitcher with decent upside who had already pitched in the majors while Bostick was just there for depth. Bell was a 4-A player while on the Mets, dominant in the minors yet sucked in the majors. Both of these deals have turned around to be busts without a doubt but can you really fire him for those moves? Johnson and Vargas both have had injury problems with the Mets and never panned out. Bradford was a mistake and I loved the guy. They felt he was going to injure his back and didn't resign him for that reason. I thought it was a bad move and it was.
2. The cycle of rebuilding wasn't completed? The Mets felt they could make a push for the postseason and with good reason too. They came so close to the World Series in 2006 and if you didn't read my Pedro article that move actually helped our rebuilding phase. You clearly don't know as much as you think you do because Burgos is 24 years old. The Castillo signing was a mistake and I didn't agree with the years given. Alou signing wasn't all that bad because he was fairly cheap and was a stop-gap solution at the time until Milledge or Gomez was ready. He played very well when he did play. Delgado has done very well with the Mets and last year and the beginning of this year when he was bad, it was mainly due to injuries. Mike Jacobs was NOT a better long term solution at all. He has a amazing swing but Omar was smart to sell him at his peak value. He has a tough time against lefties and is more of an all or nothing type of batter. He is a solid player but is not on the same level as Delgado, especially when they traded for him. Omar was looking to win now and that is why they traded for Delgado and probably would not have made it as far in 2006 with Jacobs. And how are the Mets not a real contender now with them leading the wild card which would put them in the playoffs if the season ended today?
3. If the Mets make any move regarding Omar they should extend his contract not terminate it. How can you say he doesn't value prospects when he didn't give Pelfrey or F-Mart up in the Santana deal? He gave away a guy with tons of talent but still need alot of work in Gomez, 2 pitchers who project to be back of the rotation starters in Mulvey(#3 guy) and Humber (#4 or 5), and a very young and talented pitcher in Guerra. I don't know if you noticed but Pelfrey has been great this year. Omar also balked at other GM's this year at the trade deadline when people asked for prospects such as Parnell, Niese, Kunz, and F-Mart. Omar has done a very good job at balancing a win-now strategy without giving up on the future. The Brian Bannister trade still could end up working in our favor seeing as he does not have a great deal of potential and the player we received in return, Burgos, has a lot of potential but unfortunately was injured last year and has just come back last month.
Has Omar made mistakes in the past? Yes, but name me one GM who has not. He made mistakes trading Lindstrom and Bell (although he was criticized for not being able to handle NY). He gave Castillo and El Duque contracts that were too long. But Omar has also pulled off some great moves as well. Do not forget he traded Jae Seo for Duaner Sanchez, Kris Benson and Jorge Julilo for John Maine and El Duque(who was very good for the Mets when he pitched), Xavier Nady for Oliver Perez and Roberto Hernandez, Milledge for Schnieder and Church (which save for a couple of concussions would look alot better now), and the Santana deal. Also don't forget that Omar has done a good job a picking guys up who were supposedly finished and resurrected their careers (Tatis, Darren Oliver, Roberto Hernandez, Chad Bradford, etc.). Omar has also signed the best CF in baseball in Beltran, a dominant closer in Wagner, and the Hall of Famer Pedro Martinez, whose effect on the Mets is significantly more than what he does on the field.
we forget that if he did not trade lindstrom, he had to be on the active roster the entire year. We got a guy in Vargas, who we could have sent down and kept, which we did. Theres always a reason for deals my friend...
and with Bell, all he needed was a change of scenery. Also, Willie did not use him the right way, and we never got to see him get consistent out of that pen. It just was not working with Bell, therefore he needed a change in scenery. People will have their opinions but just remember these guys are getting paid millions as this is there job. They know what they are doing....
and to comment on the Sizemore, Lee, and Phillips deal...Omar had to make that deal, in an attempt to keep the then Expos in Washington. Im sure you can find numerous articles on it.
Good points. With the deal for Colon for Sizemore and co. they got him in the middle of the season where they had a good shot of making the post season. Colon did his job and pitched very well for the Expos but the rest of the team did not do as well and fell out of contention.
If we miss out on the playoffs again Omar has to go. You can't build a team that blows a lead in September two years in a row and get away with it.
Mike Jacobs IS a long term better solution as he is only 28 while Delgado is 36. Jacobs is only in his 3rd full season and has 32 HRs and 87 RBIS (which are better numbers than Delgado put up last year). He's 8 years younger and will be around longer than Los and should improve even a bit more. While Delgado is nearing the end of his career. That means Jacobs has a better future so long-term wise he's a better option.
By listing Burgos with them I was referring to him as a known commodity (someone that had an ERA over 5 as a closer). Now he's looking at prison time, safe to say that move did not work out.
About Lindstrom, you're saying we did not want to keep our best relief pitching prospect who can throw over 100 on our roster (bad idea)so we got a minor leaguer that offers nothing. If we kept him and Bell the collapse does not happen because we have quality relief. He should have been on our 07 opening day roster as a reliever, coming off a successful transition from starter to closer in AA. Now he's had back to back solid seasons out of the pen in Florida and is now closing.
"just remember these guys are getting paid millions as this is there job. They know what they are doing.."
Could not be more wrong. Jim Duquette was getting paid millions of dollars, did he know what he was doing when he traded Kazmir for Zambrano?
The best GMs can mix smart free agent signings and trades and home-grown talent. Look at the Rays, Angels, Red Sox, Phillies, Dodgers etc. The Mets only have 2 home-grown position players in their starting lineup and only 9 on the entire roster if we include September call-ups. Hopefully in a couple years the entire starting pitching rotation minus Johan will be our guys (if Omar doesn't trade them all away). A rotation of Santana, Pelfrey, Holt, Niese, and either Parnell, Owen, Shaw, or Gee would be amazing.
Don't worry you still have my vote for Publicity Coordinator (though it won't count :{)
Back on topic... Joe Smith should not be the closer of the future, he should be the closer of the present. He is our best relief pitcher right now (last time he's given up an earned run was August 11th), has closing experience in the minors, and has the best "stuff" out of everyone in the pen (maybe not Parnell but hes too young to close yet). Fuentes I think is the best guy to get that's out of the system and would be affordable in the off season. But Smith and Kunz should be considered.
"Could not be more wrong. Jim Duquette was getting paid millions of dollars, did he know what he was doing when he traded Kazmir for Zambrano?.......
Well to be fair, the move was not all on him. A mix of Peterson not liking him and basically the team thinking he would not hold up physically and mentally. I actually was at FanFest this summer and asked Duquette about this. He gave the answer I just did. He ofcourse said he takes full responsibility in the end, but all in all the move was really thought of and made by the organization by a whole.
And get over the Jacobs deal. We got Delgado for gods sakes. Do we get to the 06 playoffs with Jacobs? No. We did better with Delgado these 3 years then we would have with Jacobs. We can get a new 1B in 2010 and then worry about it then. Bottom line, disagreeing with that trade is just sad...
Again with Lindstrom. He had to be on the big league roster the whole year in order for him to stay with the organization. You cant have a guy like that on a competing team, who was unproven and not ready. Omar did what was right and got back who was once a good prospect in Vargas. Its almost like you lose Lindstrom for nothing, or get him for the same or close value.
Well by being a longer term solution I guess you could say that argenis reyes is a better long solution than chase utley because he is younger than him. I know thats extreme but that is your logic. Of course Jacobs will be around longer but that really is just because he is younger. Delgado was in second half of his prime while Jacobs was unproven. His numbers were better than Delgados last year but he also spent a significant time hurt and on the DL. Omar was clearly playing to win now and it was a good time to do it because they came very close to the post season.
Honestly your Burgos and Bannister thing doesn't make sense. Yea he is an ass hole who beat his wife but that does not exclude the point that he has a lot of upside and is younger than Bannister. Bannister has pitched very poorly this year while Burgos was injured. You can't exactly say we lost the end of that bargain just yet when Burgos is still ours and still has upside.
Lindstrom was traded because of the problems with his options and the depth of the bullpen at the time. We needed depth in our rotation and thats what we traded for.
Smith should not be the closer. He is good but is not a closer. Ayala may not have the best stuff but he has been getting the job done for the most part. Maybe if he's going up against all righties he could be used to close but I think Ayala is doing fine.
"You cant have a guy like that on a competing team, who was unproven and not ready."
Really? You do realize Joe Smith was pitching at Wright State 10 months before the 2007 season and he was on the opening day roster. If we keep Bell and Lindstrom and hang on to Bradford (and Bannister remember his 2007 season?) there's no collapse. Instead Omar decided to bring back Mota (he was even ok with waiting for his suspension to end) and trade for Burgos who then went straight to the minors after a month. Lindstrom put up better numbers than most Mets relievers last year and his numbers this year are better than any current Met reliever this year. I'm sorry but if you have a guy in your system who can control a fastball that sometimes hits 102 you don't just trade him for a starting AAA pitcher that won't amount to anything more than that.
The Jacobs deal is so important because it signifies the moment in franchise history where Omar made the wrong decision to think we could win right away (we came close but we didn't). After this deal Omar focused on old veterans like Alou, Valentin, and Franco. That meant that there was a limited window for this team to win. That fell apart last year and its still in the process of falling apart. Delgado has maybe two good years (if that) left in him, Wagner is done, Alou better not be resigned, Lo Duca was done last July (though he was one of the only guys last year to show anything resembling heart the last month), Glavine was done last year, Pedro can't pitch more than 5 quality innings, Burgos started taking relationship advice from Brett Myers, Castillo is not going to even be close to being productive for four years, we already had to eat Sosa's unnecessary ginormous contract, Easley is ancient, Tatis is getting up in years as well. The team of last year and a majority of this year is built around guys on the decline, thats on Omar.
"Well by being a longer term solution I guess you could say that argenis reyes is a better long solution than chase utley because he is younger than him. I know thats extreme but that is your logic."
Come on Xavier tought you better reading comprehension than this lol. Argenis Reyes never will come close to putting up Utley type numbers. Mike Jacobs is putting up Carlos Delgado type numbers and he's only in his 3rd year and will still get better while Delgado is on the tail end of his career.
Here's the thing with Burgos and Bannister. Burgos has done nothing has a Met, chances are he won't pitch for us again. Last year Bannister went 12-9 with a 3.87 ERA for the lowly Royals. Those look like quality numbers, we could have used some quality starts last year. Now at the beginning of this year it'd be hard to find a pitcher with better numbers than Bannister. Clearly something happened with him because he has trailed off considerably from his incredibly hot start, but the Royals really had no choice but to keep throwing him out there while we could have sent him done to AAA to have him sort it out and come back up when he did (kind of like Oliver Perez with the Pirates in 2006).
"I'm sorry but if you have a guy in your system who can control a fastball that sometimes hits 102 you don't just trade him for a starting AAA pitcher that won't amount to anything more than that." If you just read that statement the same logic could be applied to the Burgos/Bannister trade. Interesting. Also, don't compare Bannister to Oliver Perez. Please. First off Perez had a dominant season before he lost it and had to be sent to the minors. His stuff is amazing and has ace potential. Bannister does not have nearly the amount of talent that Perez has. Bannister had one pretty good year with the Royals when he got lucky with a .266 BABIP.
Omar made a good decision to think we could win right away. We finished with the best record in the Majors that year. If not for Randolph using Mota too much in the post season and injuries to Floyd, Pedro, and El Duque we probably would have won the WS.
It is tough arguing with you because you don't really know what you're talking about. Jacobs is not putting up Delgado numbers. Delgado is his decline is still better than Jacobs is now. Alou is not going to be resigned. Wagner got hurt. I don't see how you could blame that on Omar. Valentine was great in 2006 when his career was close to done. Omar gave Tatis a chance and he has done fantastic in his time with the Mets. He is also only 33 years old. Easley is still productive. The team is not built around guys on the decline. The team is build around 3 guys in their prime/entering their prime and one guys who is nearing the end of his prime. Those guys are Beltran, Reyes, Wright, and Delgado. The old guys are there to complement those 4 guys. They are the core and the rest. Church also may become part of that core if he can overcome the head problems.
You wanna know something "Red King" (If that's what your real name is!), this brave guy listed as anonymous is absolutely right. Omar has been a bust for the Mets. Look at Brian Bannister. Just look at him. I'd like to kiss that man between the cheeks, so to speak. Think of those couple of glorious games for the Mets he played before he got hurt. One word describes it: ace in the making. And look at the first month that guy had! I haven't seen this type of consistent inconsistency since, dare I say, Aaron "Jesus" Smalls. Yeah. That's right. That's what Bannister could have been. The Mets very own "Aaron Smalls."
Now, "Red King", Xavier should have taught you better reading comprehension. You should have realized that Mike Jacobs was younger than Carlos Delgado. Just look at the age! The evidence shows that Carlos Delgado is, in fact, younger than the perky Mike Jacobs. Just read the stats page! It's all there. And so what if Delgado has been statistically better than Jacobs this year?! Jacobs got heart! Something that the rest of the Mets lack right now! Anonymous poster was right! Paul lo Duca was the only Met last year that had a heart. At least he was the only one after they got rid of sweet, gentle, Mota. Heart is one of two things they have in common. The other? STEROIDS. We need the Mets to invest more money in steroid injections for all of the players. That way, all of the Met players can show the same heart as those two saints! Yes, steroids also lead to heart problems, but that's not the point! Heart problems tomorrow, heart solutions today!! Therefore, I think it would be in Omar Minaya's best interest to sign Barry Bonds from free agency. He's the only one in the free agency pool with heart. He has the most heart in the MLB, in fact. He's a good man to build this team around.
I don't even want to start about how bad of a move Minaya made by going for Billy Wagner. So what if he's had a strong career for a closer? This is another classic example of "Minaya being Minaya." You can't always sign proven talent in this league. You have to go from your gut sometimes! Go young at all times. That's my motto. Be more of a pedosigner. We've spent too much money on guys like Wagner, Delgado, and Pedro and not enough money on guys like Almonte, Rowengartner, and Ben Franklin Rodriguez. From now on, every time Minaya makes a move like this, we're gonna call it a "Delgadud."
In conclusion, "Red King..." I will find you. I will take you. I will brake you. I hate you. I love anonymous blogger though. You knight in shining armor.
"If you just read that statement the same logic could be applied to the Burgos/Bannister trade."
No because Bannister showed he could pitch in the majors before that, Vargas did not (his ERA was over 7 in 06), and Burgos had shown he could not control his fastball at times (ERA was over 5 as a closer and a 1.64 WHIP).
I was not comparing him to Ollie I was describing a method where teams let a player sort their issues out in the minors, many teams do it with guys with different talent (Liriano, Myers, Willis, to name a few notable ones).
Let's say Bell, Lindstrom, Bannister, and Bradford are all with Mets last year, do you think there is a collapse?
We've beaten the Jacobs vs Delgado thing to death so I'll agree to disagree on that.
The main problem I have with Minaya is the length of the contract he gives his players. Wagner's was too long even if he did not get hurt, he's been fading every year for the past couple (starts out great then begins to blow leads) last August and September he blew some very important games. He has lost velocity. Alou and Castillo I touched on previously.
I'm anxiously awaiting your offseason blog to talk about what needs to be done. Just remember that the strategy of throwing money at big names has not worked out well for the Yankees.
And to other anonymous...
First I forgot to call you out on this:
"We can get a new 1B in 2010 and then worry about it then."
That is the exact attitude that Met fans need to not have. That's the attitude that leads to guys like Mo Vaughn playing first. That basically says were just gonna throw money at a player and overpay (Giambi anyone?). We're becoming the Yankees of the 2000s and thats just a recipe for disaster. Two things will happen1.) We'll pick up Delgado's option then try to resign him for more years than his body will handle. or 2.) We'll throw as much money as humanly possibly at Big Tex and Boras will manage to screw us over just like he will with Ollie this offseason.
The first baseman of the future should honestly be Dan Murphy. But if we can make him into a decent second baseman this winter we'll have to look at other options. I'm not sold on Mike Carp or Ike Davis (first round pick this year), Lucas Duda
should get a look behind Delgado (if we pick up the option) this spring training. This will call on management to make a smart free agent signing in the 2010 offseason if one of those 3 cannot develop (I don't think any of them will).
I was disagreeing with the moves for Lo Duca and Mota not complimenting them. I just gave Paul props for being one of the few that actually gave a shit when the team was falling apart.
I'm not a fan of throwing money around aimlessly and overpaying for guys because it has proven to be unsuccesful, the best teams show that there needs to be a balance between smart trades and signings and bringing up players through the system. Look at the Red Sox, the Rays, the Angels, and the Phillies (notice that these are the most fun teams to watch too). Not only is it more successful as proven by the more recent World Champions this entire decade, but its more fun as a fan to watch your players develop into stars/good role players or overachievers (Edgardo Alfonzo, Benny Agbayani, Jay Payton, David Wright). Look at the Angels in 2002, Marlins in 2003, White Sox in 2005, Cardinals in 2006, and Red Sox in 2007.
But way to ruin my and Rory's debate.
Bannister showed he could pitch in the majors at that point but Vargas did not? Did he really? From what I remember pitched in 8 games and had an ERA of 4.26. Even when he first got called up to pitch and had an ERA below 3, he was in trouble nearly every single inning before he got hurt. Vargas's rookie season pitched in 17 games with a 4.03 ERA. Vargas has had lots of injury problems which resulted in his high ERA. By sending him down it may not do much. All of the pitchers you mentioned who were sent down have good stuff which is something Bannister does not really have. He gets by because he is a smart pitcher not an overpowering one.
I can't say whether or not there would have been a collapse last year or not. Possibly no but it still could have happened.
Alou was given a one year contract with a 2nd year option while other teams had offers of 2-3 years on the table. Alou was a good pick up because he was great when he played. Need I remind you that he set the Mets record with a 30 game hitting streak. Without him the Mets probably would have had an even worse collapse seeing as he great in the second half of the season. Wagner's contract length was necessary because if we did not offer him the 4 yr deal, he probably would have gone to another team who was offering him 4 years. I'll agree with you about Castillo's long contract. That was a big mistake.
We are not becoming the Yankees. Notice how we refused to trade our number 1 prospect in Fernando Martinez and our former 1st round pick in Mike Pelfrey for arguably the best pitcher in baseball, Johan Santana. Also notice how we still have both of them along with Flores, Niese, Carp, Kunz, and Parnell while there were OFs and RP available during this trading deadline.
Dan Murphy should be our 2b, not 1b. Ike Davis has played half a season in the minors. Give him a shot. Also, you seemed to have forgot about Nick Evans who is naturally a 1b and was voted as the best defensive 1b in the Easter League Division in the minors. He crushes left handed pitching and if he figures out righties can be our future 1b. We have a good amount of talent at 1b for the future in Davis, Evans, Duda, and Carp. They will probably not resign Delgado after next year.
Is Barry Zito on our team? No. No overpaying there. How many players has Omar actually overpayed/ gave contracts that were too long? Castillo is a definite. He should have got a 2 year deal at most. El Duque got 1 year too many on his contract. Not many others I can think of at the moment.\
Also, who are you?
It was different with Joe Smith. If Smith struggled, we could have sent him down. If we ever sent down Lindstrom, we would have to trade him. Jeez I feel like a broken record. Its just the way things are. Again, so we traded him and got someone who had potential in Vargas who we could send up and down as much as we wanted.
damn get over Lindstrom you guys....incase you did not know...we are in a playoff race! And Omar has already commented on this deal. It was done because Omar felt he would lose Lindstrom for nothing.
Ruin your debate?! Kind anonymous sir, this is no debate! I knew from the very beginning that you were humble, but I seemed to have greatly misunderestimated you. We all know that you've won. This was more of a teacher-student relationship. You allowed the student (FUCKING RED KIND) to say his mind, but then you put him back in his place with both your logic, wit, and charm. This was a blowout from the very beginning. You brought your A-game to the table and then cleaned it up with your magic wand of baseball genius! I IDOLIZE YOU!
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